Discuss...

I'm still not decided on this issue...some merit to both sides. I am, however, very concerned about the long term impact of giving payers/insurers the ability to control the price of medicine...that would be a bad thing for all and I hope it isn't in the final package.

SciGuy, I don't understand what this means? Also, who is "controlling" the price of medicine now?

Not talking about now. At one point the dems were pushing to give the payer an ability to impact or cap the price of meds or at least have drug companies foot some of the bill...haven't been following recent development all that closely of late so not sure if this is still in there or not.

now i get some of my medicine form canada because my insurance company says the generic is not allowed in the u.s. this is not right.

The guy engaged his mouth without a filter between his mouth and brain. By this morning $100,000 had been donated to his opponent in the next election.

Jerry, do you know why you can't get the generic in the US? Is it still under US patent (but not a Canadian patent)?

He's a hero today in SC. But then they allow Sanford to remain Govenor...

Conservatives are still the same after all these years.

People who cheer him are utterly ignorant of politics...especially if they're politicians...he's done, and what good will that do his adulators?

Fish on...

Todd

Agree with him or not. He should have kept his mouth shut. I'm not a big Obama fan, but he deserves respect

I think maybe he should have just shut the fukk up...then he'd probably still have a shot at getting re-elected, instead of being the laughing stock that he is.

Fish on...

Todd

Just what the GOP didn't need.

I have been reading these political posts for a while now and I just can't belive what a vile person KK is. What happened to you in your life to make you so full of hate for anyone the disagrees with you? You are a typical "progressive", you preach tollerance and than hammer any person that has different views with vile names and comments. I have never seen you answer a question that was posed to you. You call others wingnuts, but buddy, you need to look in the mirror. You are a keyboard hero, but I guarantee if you talked to me or any of these others you have attacked in person, you would be choking on your teeth. I am a PROUD AMERICAN, both of my grandfathers laid their lives on the line to protect other from people like YOU. YOU sir, Are what is wrong with our country, a person who is willing to hand over his entire life to the government. Go ahead and attack away, I am sure you will call me a wingnut, but you mean nothing to me. You expose yourself everytime you post, and everyone on this board know who the wingnut is.

I'm impressed at the blossom forming oh-so-beautifully in this thread.

AaronP: KK is yanking your Internet chain and apparently it is working. If you hung with KK in person, you two would get along fine. Just like nearly everyone else here.

As far as the Wilson outburst, the point I haven't heard mentioned is there are MANY people have the same type of uncontainable contempt/rage for Obama and nearly anything he tries to promote. Unfortunately, those same people are literally and figuratively the loudest voices in the party. Everyone is condemning Wilson's actions but he is representitive of what has happened to the Republicans and why they are so easy to attack. Foolishly, moderate Republicans and true conservatives allowed all this to happen, sometimes overtly and somtimes by not dismissing some of the craziest stuff.

The facts seem to be biased towards Dems a lot in the last few years...

Enjoy it now the truth will be out to bite later....

Nobama is the savior...no really he is.....

just ask all the libtards that suck off my tax dollars.....

Aw fuuck it....

Maybe I should hire some of kks non-green card carryin mexicans to mow my lawn....

Nah thats what libtards do cuz there lazy...I'll just mow it myself....

Keep doin what you do!!!!

Fer fuk sakes you already posted that howabout sumpin new!!!!

kkk and his new toy....

A few good points in between the usual squabbles. I guess the underlining question that remains though is: Can illegals enroll or is it limited to citizens? That was clearly the impetus behind Wilson's outburst...but what are the facts? Providing health care for illegals, at least according to some, is a major money sink in the US.

As it is in HB 3200 illegals will be able to enroll as there isn't a provision to check for citizenship. If an illegal pays his full share, let him enroll.

Agreed.


Jerry, I'm still curious why you can't get your generic in the states.

So your are saying that, for the most part, the money sink would continue, correct? What about illegals that make too much for subsidy...would the public payer be able to accurately determine their income?

Obama Heckler To Be Executed
Written by Illusnist
In what many analysts are describing as a landmark decision in his career as President of the United States, Barrack Obama ordered the execution of Senator Joe Wilson, formerly of South Carolina. This decree comes only 18 hours after the disgraced Senator had the audacity to interrupt an official Presidential address with a remark that many people considered less than optimistic.

In his defense, Joe remarked, "I wasn't trying to be a rude. The fact is I was hypnotized by an angry right-wing activist, and can't resist the urge to make comments whenever someone who outranks me has something to say. Last week, I called Mickey Mouse a 'turd.'"

The execution will be carried out in a back alley on some undisclosed dark and rainy night. Media will be excluded from the event, but the public is encouraged to use their imagination to experience the wrath of the Executive Branch.

A source close to the President reported that Mr. Obama remarked how sad it was that the interruption came after his broadcast to the nation's school students on Tuesday. One imaginary source is reported to have reported the President saying, "I think I could have touched them better and left a lasting impression on what I had to say if I could've had an execution to show them."

The best part of the whole evening was the look on Stretch Pelosi's face when "you lie" was uttered. At first she was trying to figure out what the hell happened. The when it finally sunk into her pinhead she had the look of utter hate and you could see the wheels turning in the wicked witch's head. "I'll get you my pretty!" "Someone get his name!"
"How dare they ridicule the saviour and king!" She continued her look of hate long after the incident passed, as if it was her destiny to defend the throne.

It was almost comical except that the witch indeed holds power. Doesn't that concern any of you left wing whackos? Probably not because like most you collect your welfare checks and then go home and insert your heads in the sand pile.

I'd take 10 Wilson's to one Pelosi anyday.

That wasn't me-- it was the post before mine.

Illegals will get no subsidies.

SciGuy, it wasn't Jerry that mentioned he couldn't get his generics here. It was "larryb". This actually relates to my first response to you, which was who is "controlling" the price of medicine. In this case, the Canadian situation proves it isn't a "free market", which everyone seems to want until it is their business that has to compete. Insurance companies and pharma companies have dug their own graves and I feel no sympathy for their industries.

SciGuy, there have been LOTS of media outlets analyzing the "illegal/healthcare" situation. Nearly all are reaching the same conclusion and it isn't what Wilson would want you to believe.

Oops...oversight on my part regarding larryb/jerry.

There are a hundred variables that effect drug cost...my question is what new variables will be added to the pile if HR3200 passes?

Here is some backgroud reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/us/08lobby.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=drug%20companies&st=cse

I know many/most people think of big pharma as evil to some degree. The conflict, though, is that it is big pharma that makes the drugs that help people...not acedemics and only rarely biotechs. Yes, the costs of drugs up until the patent expires is high. The reason is that an approved drug has to pay for all of that drug's research, development, clinical trials, and activities surrounding FDA approval PLUS that drug has to pay for all of the research, development, and clinical trials for other drugs that a given company tried, but failed, to get on the market. Consider that >90% of drugs that a company pays to discover/develop never gets approval...and all of those efforts need to be paid for. There are two sad outcomes: 1) Pharma has to charge a lot of money for drugs once it is approved by the FDA but for a finite span (during the life of the patent). 2) Pharma can only risk investment in the development of drugs that target major diseases. The usual number that is given for a worthwhile discovery effort is the potential for $1 billion a year for it's patent life. As a consequence Pharma can't afford to develop drugs that target rarer diseases, so the number of diseases with unmet needs is staggering...and depressing as hell. On top of everything else nearly all of the big pharma companies are in real trouble right now. They are facing a "patent cliff" where by 2012 nearly all of the big money maker drugs are coming off of patent so generics, as they should, will quickly saturate the market. All of big pharma is currently scrambling to overcome this patent cliff. Some are buying other companies (i.e. buying research and development) while others are drastically downsizing...sometimes both. I suppose there are some that like the fact the big/evil pharma is hurting and on top of that they may have to foot part of the bill for HR3200...thereby adding to the hurt. I look at the situation more from the perspective of how hurting drug makers will impact human health in years to come. Some media sources say pharma will pay while others say they support the proposed bill...I haven't swallowed either but it would be nice to know the truth.

TFF.

Section 246 of H.R. 3200 states unequivocally, "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

For the wingnuts to remain so willfully ignorant is actually embarassing to rational citizens.





'Course ya would J... your Klan chapter don't take wimminfolk after all!

[quote=4Salt]Section 246 of H.R. 3200 states unequivocally, "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Thanks for providing that...I was wondering if it was, in fact true. Glad it is noted in the Bill, and hope it stays there!

Unfortunately, all the illegals will still be plugging up our emergency rooms at hospitals so they can get their flu and stubbed toes treated.

Honestly, I can't see much benefit to the American people if that is the case. I am not for having all the legal US citizens pay their bills, and they can't pay them on their own with the high costs of services here. But then, WTF else are we supposed to do? People do get sick, and germs don't discriminate on the basis of race or legal residence status.




Mike

I really don't think that is the central question/issue, better to ask "How" the democratically controlled congress along with the democratic President will grant amnesty to all the illegal aliens (i.e, Mexicans). Once "Granted" amnesty, yes then they will be "Legally Eligible", class dismissed. The real "Poser" of a question will be, "How" will they be allowed Not to Pay Taxes and yet still Vote for democrats????? I'm sure all the resident Libtards here will 'Splain it to us taxpaying no-account low lifes

All of the "illegal" talk reeks of racism. I'm sure all on one side will disagree. If "the illegals" are such an important issue than you should actually be IN FAVOR of health care reform. AS someone mentioned, care is already given at Emergency rooms, regardless of citizenship. That is the most expensive care there is. At least with the proposed legislation, illegals would essentially be forced to buy private insurance and there will be no subsidies given to them for it.

I love all the talk about illegal aliens.

Well, that's kinda what this thread is about...a guy who made an inappropriate outburst over that very issue (despite my attempts to hijack it into a thread about impacting the cost of drugs).



Thanks for sharing.

Did ya catch some of our resident 'centrist' AntiM's posts over there KK?

Just when I thought she couldn't be any MORE of a two-faced ass smoocher...

Hank - The ONLY way to absolutely guarantee that no illegals enter the system is to require a national proof of citizenship card that EVERYBODY will have to carry ALL the time.

Talk about your government intrusion!

WHEN exactly will the retarded right EVER hold a consistent position?

Yeah. How stupid KK is for reading the bill he's going to comment on.

WTF?

Are you Rory Bellows?

Despite what you think of KK, he hit an important nail.

The public option is IMPERATIVE for real change. Without it, the insurance companies aren't competing against anything except their greedy buddies in the same industry.

SciGuy, check out the figures on pharma marketing. Based on what you typed, you might be surprised.

I'm offended by the term "illegal alien " I prefer "criminal trespassers"

Nice 1st post, fuktard.

No surprise here. While it is indeed amazing what they pay for marketing...they do it for a reason.

It is the future that concerns me.

BTW, I'm not against the proposal...health care coverage is a mess...I'm just trying to get some sort of grasp on the impact both short and long term.

Pretty amazing place, to be sure. In fact, I'm quite popular over there, given the number of folks that respond to my posts. Problem is, with each minute spent reading their moronic I-hate-Americans diatribes, one can feel one's IQ drop point by point. Best to take snivelheader is small measured doses.

Hey, my post was directed at left wing whackos! Oh I forgot, you are one.

Ok...for the sake of discussion lets say you are correct.

Now...

Please enlighten us (KK or ???...).....How are WE going to pay for it?

Mike

The way it is SUPPOSED to work is that people PAY into the public option, just like they pay into their current private insurance. The difference is that the public option is a not-for-profit option. So, that removes things like shareholder dividends and CEO salaries. It ISN'T "free" insurance for everyone that is just going to be given away.

The argument against such a plan is that "this is the first step in killing the insurance industry". If the system was subsidized (which it shouldn't be), then maybe that is a fair argument. If the private sector is capable of doing things so much more efficiently than the public sector, as is often repeated, then they shouldn't fear the competition. No one will WANT the public option if it is a worse choice. And the public option is not being forced on anyone.

Something like spending hours online arguing about proposed legislation you only know about second-hand?

Gotcha.

I have not read it.

That's why I have reserved comment, other than to say that our current system is broken and needs to be reworked in some manner.

I did what I thought was the right thing and voted for Ron Paul.

Now I'm just watching the circus from the sidelines.

A few articles this morning mentioned that parts for bill are now being redrafted to make it (more?) explicit that non-residents can not take advantage of the new program. Seems like Dems actually responded to Wilson's remark or at least the publicity that ensued.

KK...if the coho are hitting your wogs, try skating these guys. I've had a much better strike to land ratio on them relative to wogs or other surface patterns (I'm assuming you are still in the salt).

It's interesting that abortion has come up, because I think it's a useful analogy to look at abortion issues in the health care debate.

Abortion...there will never be any agreement on it, because the two sides are not ever discussing the same thing...one side wants to shove their religious beliefs down the throats of everyone else, the other side wants everyone else to leave them alone to live their lives how they see fit...there's no "issue" to discuss.

As long as the RWWJ's are distracting themselves with anger over health care reform because people who shouldn't be "entitled" to it, they will never be able to rationally discuss the actual issue, which is how to make it more affordable for everyone.

If done properly, "entitled" or not shouldn't even be a question...the question is "what's cheaper and more reasonable?"...and when the irrelevant red herring of "illegals" comes up, it shows that just as with the birthers and deathers, the "illegals drum beaters" don't care about the economics of it, they just want to make sure that those dirty Mexicans don't get it, 'cuz they're "not entitled"...

There is a racial overtone to it, and it exists in an irrelevant context, one that has no connection to the question of whether or not a public option will increase competition, lower costs, and cover more people...the only questions that matter.

Fish on...

Todd

Sincerly,

GW Bush................the guy Hank voted for.







What were you saying, Hank?

I'm not entering into an abortion debate here, just noting that the abortion debate is useful in framing the "debate" over health care reform...to the point, neither side is talking about the same thing, so will likely never come agreement...

The 51% who are against abortion rights ought not have any abortions...problem solved.

Fish on...

Todd

I agree, but sometimes $hit happens, and when it does, there ought not be some stuffed up religious nut telling them how they should live their lives, or deal with their problems.

I'm not "pro-abortion"...I'm "pro-shutthefuckupifyouwanttorunsomeoneelse'sliveaccordingtoyourcultishbeliefs"...

Fish on...

Todd

Aha! Now y'all are starting to sound like libertarians!

how phucked up is that... rules or no rules... a world that is still at war is not a civilized one...


and as long as there are extreme lefties and righties there will never be a civilized dark side...

Hank,

Along the lines of the thread title, there doesn't seem to be any pragmatic economic alternative regarding medical care for illegal aliens. Currently they come to ERs, which I hear by law are not allowed to turn them away, altho it's uncertain how one verifies legal status during an emergency. Same with the paramedics arriving at an accident scene. Let's just say Hank appears to be down for the count, having been hit by a drunk driver. The Medic walks up and says, "I'll begin treating you Hank, just as soon as you prove to me that you're a legal resident or US citizen." We don't have a reasonable and workable means to deal with this, and as pointed out by some posts, it's small stuff in the greater scheme of US medical drama.

Then comes the abortion issue . . . really? I don't know, but maybe it's an issue. An economic pragmatist would insist on covering abortion costs, thereby avoiding all the subsequent public medical costs later attributable to the unwanted child. Looking at it strictly as an economic issue and steering clear of any ethical or moral arguement, which is a waste of time.

The system is broken. A public option is necessary for the simple fact that private health insurance has no real, only imaginary, competition otherwise. Private health insurance exists for the sole purpose of profit. It makes profit by raising rates and denying claims or coverage. There is no other way it can generate profit. Boards of Directors award CEOs who raise rates and deny coverage with multi-million dollar bonuses. Profit is the wrong purpose for health care. The system can only be fixed by adding health to the purpose of the business, with or without profit as a purpose. And ultimately, it really isn't insurance in the sense that car and home owner's fire insurance is. You may go 20 or 30 years without a car accident, wherein your premiums help cover those who do have them. You may go a lifetime and never have your house burn down, but your premiums will help cover those few who experience that misfortune. But everybody, if they live long enough, needs some medical care. Health insurance is really a glorified pre-payment plan. We pay in every month cuz the day will come when we have to cash in on some part of our premiums, some of us more than others of course, partly preventable, partly due to chance.

Sg

Illegals are here, and always will be...illegals will need health care, and always will.

What makes more economic sense? Pay for ER visits, or pay for health care?

That's the only question that should matter, but unfortunately pandering to the base will take over instead of logic whenever this discussion comes up, and we all know what Republicans pandering to the base will do...even if it makes no sense economically.

Fish on...

Todd

OK, let's have a public option. Is everyone required to pay? Is everyone required to carry insurance, public or private? Can they be required to pay? I'll lay odds ACLU will take that one on.

Pundits have already stated that young people won't buy insurance when they are getting started. so who pays their freight? Why would anyone pay if there are no pre existing condition rules? Just wait till you are in need of care and then pay, if you can.


That's the trouble with libtards. They only look one way when crossing the street. Then when they get hit in the ass they sue!

None of it really matters. The world is coming to an end anyway.

12/21/2012.

KK the Michael Savage of the Left!

The trouble with left wing whack jobs is that if they'd just shut the fuk up and admit their not all knowing, true progress could be made. Instead, they continue on with their heads stuck up their asses and their zippers down preaching to the masses how much smarter they are than everyone else.

Thats all right, our new poor people bosses will help us all reach equality!

Fuk nationalized healthcare, de regulate it and let the free market rule. Almost all of the major collapases of late have come in some part with the goverment interveneing with the free market system.

Has the ACLU stopped the goverment from collecting SS taxes? Go ahead and stop paying your FICA and see where that gets you.

But you just go ahead and keep dreaming up excuses on why the reputedly most powerful nation in the world shouldn't provide basic care for each and every citizen. And then keep trying to convince us you're a good American. You're only fooling yourself.

That's like studied stupidity right there.

Hank, WRO is one of the people on your side. This is the base of your party.

Of all the godawfulstupid and retarded things I've seen on this website lately...this one takes the cake...hell, it takes two cakes, a box of brownies, and a dozen fruit filled donuts.

WRO, were you born that stupid, or did you work at it?

Fish on...

Todd

Oh boy, tax credits! That means you get money back that you didn't pay in so you can pay for your own health care. And he isn't going to raise taxes! Talk about inbred whacko dumshits, you take the prize KK. I know that aspect hasn't been finalized. None of it has and that is precisely why the questions are being asked and the charges are flying. See you moron, most of us aren't gullible to swallow the kool aid when the government says "trust us"!

Your bull$hit really makes for good conversation when sensible people get together and talk about idiot left wing whackos. Didn't know you were so famous did you? Keep whacking!

It's said there's no such thing as a stupid question, so I looked again to make sure WRO's post was not a question. Given the excessive collapse of the country's financial structure due to insufficient regulation, I didn't think anyone would say something this stupid. WRO must have been trying to give us all a laugh. Seems to have worked.

Sg

Rather than "I'll tell a funny joke and make 'em laugh" kinda deals, I'm pretty sure it was more of a "I'll say something really stupid, 'cuz I'm not so bright, and then that'll make 'em laugh" kinda things...

Fish on...

Todd

Because of goverment regulation/bailouts no major company has learned a damn thing from their mistakes other than, if they fuk up the goverment will bail them out. With a true free market situation, the weak fail and strong previal creating a better smarter product in the end.. Instead we have companies that have been propped up repeatedly by goverment loans, laws, etc that are directly attached to the goverment [censored].

My thoughts with healthcare, is that the massive amount of healthcare regulations, espicially with regards to anti competition laws etc has created the animal were dealing with now. My contention is that each state was a true free market situation, instead of a goverment implemeted oligarchy like it is now, the prices would fall and the quality would increase. It has worked in many other industries.

With the exception of national security, firemen, and police can one of y'all enlightened folk name things that the goverment does more efficiently and provide a better service than private industry?

WRO,

You think the price we pay for national security is an example of economic efficiency? Maybe an accidental poor example on your part, but I couldn't let it pass.

Inefficiency is one of the prices we pay for democracy. Democracy, by design, is slow and inefficient, yet it better represents our pluralist interests than any other governmental arrangement.

Getting back to your free market, the model of free market of capitalism isn't flawless. It permits oligopolies to become monopolies and allows them to gain a major control of government by purchasing it (as in, we have the best Congress money can buy), and create social economic collapses just like what our government has been dealing with for the past year or so. A totally free market is just as undesirable, from a social economic outlook, as a totally controlled socialist, communist, facist, etc. model. A balance of economic freedom and government control is necessary to create the most desirable mix of social and economic benefits to all citizens, not just the most lucky, resourcefull, ambitious, and greedy. Since those values are largely subjectively defined, we won't agree on the mix, so in a pluralistic society it stays in flux, but absent a reasonable dose of freedom and economic controls, we're screwed.

Sg

Democracies aren't necessarily supposed to be efficient..."efficiency" is how a dictator can change the face of a nation with one sweep of a pen, with no checks or balances.

The drawn out give and take that takes all interests into account and typically ends up pleasing the most possible, while not pleasing a good chunk at both ends of the spectrum, might be the most applicable definition of "democracy".

Fish on...

Todd

Salmo,

I was definately leading on the service side of things for national security, as a model of efficency it most assuredly fails as does almost any goverment ran entity, in thanks to no small part the "purchases" made by companies with regards to their congressmen and elected goverment officials.

WRO,

Well this thread's ending badly if we're no longer slinging mud and calling each other dumb schits and stuff . . .

What now?

Sg

Would you feel better if I called you a Fly flicking nancy boy? It doesn't need to go to the level that it is taken on this board at a general rule. Civil people, no matter there leanings, can have civil debates. Civil people when incited by borderline hate speach, can make comments as uncivil as my first one. One thing that has been established, is that we have problems in our country and politics, what is yet to be decided is how to solve them and thats where in the problem lies. Extremeists on both sides only serve to make the problems worse. I consider myself middle of the road, although by the standards put forth by some on this board, I am gun toting, redneck neanderthal, ready to reinstitute the catholic crusades.

Hey Aunty, I tried to post a response to your bullsh!t challenge at sh.net, but I don't have posting privileges on the Politics forum there.

The sh!t is still hitting the fan.

September 13, 2009
Op-Ed Columnist
Boy, Oh, Boy
By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON
The normally nonchalant Barack Obama looked nonplussed, as Nancy Pelosi glowered behind.

Surrounded by middle-aged white guys — a sepia snapshot of the days when such pols ran Washington like their own men’s club — Joe Wilson yelled “You lie!” at a president who didn’t.

But, fair or not, what I heard was an unspoken word in the air: You lie, boy!
The outburst was unexpected from a milquetoast Republican backbencher from South Carolina who had attracted little media attention. Now it has made him an overnight right-wing hero, inspiring “You lie!” bumper stickers and T-shirts.

The congressman, we learned, belonged to the Sons of Confederate Veterans, led a 2000 campaign to keep the Confederate flag waving above South Carolina’s state Capitol and denounced as a “smear” the true claim of a black woman that she was the daughter of Strom Thurmond, the ’48 segregationist candidate for president. Wilson clearly did not like being lectured and even rebuked by the brainy black president presiding over the majestic chamber.
I’ve been loath to admit that the shrieking lunacy of the summer — the frantic efforts to paint our first black president as the Other, a foreigner, socialist, fascist, Marxist, racist, Commie, Nazi; a cad who would snuff old people; a snake who would indoctrinate kids — had much to do with race.
I tended to agree with some Obama advisers that Democratic presidents typically have provoked a frothing response from paranoids — from Father Coughlin against F.D.R. to Joe McCarthy against Truman to the John Birchers against J.F.K. and the vast right-wing conspiracy against Bill Clinton.
But Wilson’s shocking disrespect for the office of the president — no Democrat ever shouted “liar” at W. when he was hawking a fake case for war in Iraq — convinced me: Some people just can’t believe a black man is president and will never accept it.

“A lot of these outbursts have to do with delegitimizing him as a president,” said Congressman Jim Clyburn, a senior member of the South Carolina delegation. Clyburn, the man who called out Bill Clinton on his racially tinged attacks on Obama in the primary, pushed Pelosi to pursue a formal resolution chastising Wilson.

“In South Carolina politics, I learned that the oli ve branch works very seldom,” he said. “You have to come at these things from a position of strength. My father used to say, ‘Son, always remember that silence gives consent.’

Barry Obama of the post-’60s Hawaiian ’hood did not live through the major racial struggles in American history. Maybe he had a problem relating to his white basketball coach or catching a cab in New York, but he never got beaten up for being black.

Now he’s at the center of a period of racial turbulence sparked by his ascension. Even if he and the coterie of white male advisers around him don’t choose to openly acknowledge it, this president is the ultimate civil rights figure — a black man whose legitimacy is constantly challenged by a loco fringe.

For two centuries, the South has feared a takeover by blacks or the feds. In Obama, they have both.

The state that fired the first shot of the Civil War has now given us this: Senator Jim DeMint exhorted conservatives to “break” the president by upending his health care plan. Rusty DePass, a G.O.P. activist, said that a gorilla that escaped from a zoo was “just one of Michelle’s ancestors.” Lovelorn Mark Sanford tried to refuse the president’s stimulus money. And now Joe Wilson.

“A good many people in South Carolina really reject the notion that we’re part of the union,” said Don=2 0Fowler, the former Democratic Party chief who teaches politics at the University of South Carolina. He observed that when slavery was destroyed by outside forces and segregation was undone by civil rights leaders and Congress, it bred xenophobia.

“We have a lot of people who really think that the world’s against us,” Fowler said, “so when things don’t happen the way we like them to, we blame outsiders.” He said a state legislator not long ago tried to pass a bill to nullify any federal legislation with which South Carolinians didn’t agree. Shades of John C. Calhoun!

It may be President Obama’s very air of elegance and erudition that raises hackles in some. “My father used to say to me, ‘Boy, don’t get above your raising,’ ” Fowler said. “Some people are prejudiced anyway, and then they look at his education and mannerisms and get more angry at him.”
Clyburn had a warning for Obama advisers who want to forgive Wilson, ignore the ignorant outbursts and move on: “They’re going to have to develop ways in this White House to deal with things and not let them fester out there. Otherwise, they’ll see numbers moving in the wrong direction.”

A year ago dissent was patriotic. Today it's racist.

I think a lot of dems voted for the war because they very, very mistakenly thought they could trust the President of the United States of America...a mistake we'll all be paying for for a very long time.

Fish on...

Todd

Your Boy Bill Clinton was saying the exact same thing...remember ?

Bill Clinton's not "my boy", and last time I checked he hadn't been in elected office for quite a while...

Fish on...

Todd

Serious question: How would you rate Clinton as a Prez right now in time ?

I thought he was good at the time, and looks better and better as time goes by...

He's definitely one of the best politicians ever, masterful speaker and thinker.

Fish on...

Todd

I would welcome him with open arms...about now. Ok a hand shake.

Todd, you're right he was a great speaker..didn't like a lot of his policies, but he was very charismatic.

I think the thing that separates him as a politician from most others in history is that he's smart, really smart, and he can think on his feet and speak off the cuff better than most politicos can read a prepared speech that they've practiced all week...

Fish on...

Todd

Clinton could tell you to go to hell...and you would be looking forward to the trip.

Oh Gawd........you've done it now.
".....he's smart, really smart......"

WTF?

You looked to see who he's married to???? Somewhere in there don't you have to ask.......


















WHY?

I don't think you REALLY want to go down that road too far, do you?

think about it now........

I wouldn't marry her, as I've got my own special sweetheart, but Hillary's smarter than almost all of you combined, and better connected, too.

Fish on...

Todd